Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the land of zoom. And, uh, here we are, there's this other, uh, aro, uh, virus coming along. It's like, let's get through this one more time. Um, but you know, what's really interesting is, uh, out of every, uh, crisis [00:00:30] or set of headwinds, there comes opportunity to go and improve and transform. And, uh, so at the, at the forefront of the transformation move is gentleman named Dr. Wallace pond with his partner, of course, Anthony beta. Uh, but, uh, we're gonna, uh, I'm gonna, uh, interview Dr. Pond this morning and, uh, and Wallace and Anthony have a, um, an organization called the transformation, [00:01:00] uh, collaborative. And, uh, what they said about to do is to go into organizations into schools, uh, and help them create the transformation required to go and, um, move them out of what Dr. Pond will soon explain is a, a dooms day environment. If we stay the way we are as schools, it's a heavy stuff, but very interesting. So Dr. Pond [00:01:30] has had many, many years in the higher education space. His, a major role that jumps out for me is he was the head of online learning for CEC is a large, large S now he has this really cool, um, really consulting organization. So, uh, Wallace, how are you this morning? Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Greg. Thank you. And thanks for inviting me to chat with folks today. I really appreciate it. Speaker 1: Yeah. So, [00:02:00] you know, at enrollment resources, what we, uh, one of the talks we've given at conferences in the past is imagine, um, what happens if, if you were to stay in a certain question, uh, and that is, uh, what if you, your school was like Teslas to electric cars or, uh, is to smartphone. In other words, what if a school was world class mm-hmm [00:02:30] and, um, you know, so transformation is painful, um, for many, but there, there has to be a fantastic outcome, uh, in order for people to go and, and have the leverage to go at it. A Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, the, the, the, one of the reasons Craig that, that transformation is so rare is cuz it's so hard yeah. Um, but, but if you look either in the higher education space [00:03:00] or anywhere you look, when you see a performer that is really an outlier, when you see either a startup or an existing organization that is not just good at what they do, um, used that use the term world class, you know, but is outperforming by, you know, 10 X changing the industry, um, you know, experiencing hyper growth, if that's the objective, those organizations, none of them [00:03:30] achieve that with incremental change right. None of them achieve that by ding and Duncan around the edges. You know, they don't achieve that by doing things a little bit faster or a little bit better, those organizations achieve that outlier status because they do things dramatically differently. Right. Um, and when we talk about transformational change, you know, the way we define that at the transformational collaborative transformation, collaborative is, is a RA departure [00:04:00] from the status quo that can be market mission. Uh, um, it can be all kinds of things, but it's a radical departure. And to your point, there's really now there aren't examples out there, um, of organizations that have achieved, um, remarkable unused usual success without doing something that is transformatively different than was being done before. So Speaker 1: Dr. Pond explained [00:04:30] to me the difference then between transformational skill or management against, um, lean management, which is what in marketing, uh, enrollment resource is we do a lot of lean management split testing of headlines, colors, copy type, um, that kinda thing. Uh, so yes, Speaker 2: Go ahead. I'm sorry, Greg. I cut you off. Go ahead. Speaker 1: No. So explain to the, the folks here, what is the difference between what you're advocating for and [00:05:00] something like Kaza or lean management, little tiny, um, accumulation of minimal, uh, improvements. Speaker 2: Yeah. So first of all, let me say that, you know, improvement is important, right? Anytime you can do something better, more efficiently, anytime you can improve a conversion, anytime you can lower a cost, the, those are imp, you know, improve, uh, compliance. Those, those kinds of improvements are helpful. Right. And [00:05:30] at the transformation collaborative, we think of those things in the context of operational excellence. Right? Okay. Yeah. We, we, we, we don't think of them in the case. You know, typically what happens is, is those are looked at, those are very transactional short term, fix a problem, increase lead version conversion by 30 basis points. And then you get this and this and this downstream that's that's okay. That's good stuff. You know, you, you would rather improve conversion rate than [00:06:00] not right, right. Yes. However, what we do and our focus is on something totally different. Speaker 2: Um, our focus is on actual reinvention, right? Our focus is on actual transformation, which is a very different leadership challenge. Um, it's a very different process. And I'll give you an example of a client I was working with that, that misunderstood the notion of, of transformational change. Mm-hmm um, a lot of, [00:06:30] you know, yes, it can be, you know, a lot of people just simply misunderstand. They think that if it was hard or it a long time, or it was expensive or it changed, you know, an interface that I work with that, that that's transformational. What happened during the pandemic and what's happening still during the pandemic is a lot of institutions have done incredible things. They've done it. You know, they, they did things they did not think were possible and they did them quickly, but very few you of those things were transformational, right? Speaker 2: [00:07:00] Mm-hmm so give an example. Let's say that, that, you know, I, I was working with a client that, that moved their admissions process and their financial aid process from what had been, you know, manual and, and, and analog to this incredible document imaging system, lot of automation, very proud of it. And they should have been, it was fairly expensive. It did improve the process. They thought it transformed them. What I suggested to them was, you know, you've created a better [00:07:30] student experience, user experience. It's more secure, uh, it's more effective, but, but what you did was just took, take a technology and, and change an existing process. Nothing changed in what the students are doing just a little bit changed in how they're still making the same application going through the same financial aid process, but the same credit bearing courses, hopefully they get to the same degree. Transformation might look like actually [00:08:00] changing what you sell, right. versus versus processes to continue the status quo. Speaker 1: So other other things that you sell, uh, um, deepen thicken into that for the group here, Speaker 2: You mean the transformation collaborative? Speaker 1: Well, no, you're saying, uh, changing what you sell. Oh, got it. Like education is famous for, you got three or four options of programs and it leads to some kind of a, [00:08:30] a credit or a degree. Right. So what do you mean by that? Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so thank you. I'm glad that's the question you asked because I think that's a really important one to answer. I, I think for those of us that are in the higher education space and have been for a long time, we have to shift our thinking from higher education to the, to postsecondary ecosystem. You know, most colleges and universities, whether they've been around for 20 years [00:09:00] or 200 years, they have a very similar model, the traditional schools. Right. And when I say traditional, I don't mean for profit or not for profit. I don't mean online or on campus. When I say traditional, I mean, you know, you're selling something that's credit bearing leads to a degree. And in the us, it would be title four funding for a large number of students that is a declining market. That's a scary declining market. Um, it's, it's contracting rapidly over [00:09:30] the last 10, 11 years. And the last three years have been the most rapid decline of the tent or 11. So let Speaker 1: Me jump in, is that kinda like what, where IBM was feeling when, uh, in the seventies, eighties, when the IBM electric was the, the thing and along comes, you know, apple with their, their silly little computer, is that where we're at at? Well, Speaker 2: That's an example. Sure. And that, that, yes, because [00:10:00] there's a couple of things that are happening right now, the market is moving very rapidly away from the traditional model away from the credit bearing, you know, 12 week quarters, 16 week semesters, you know, about model leading to a degree. Um, so there are multiple things that are happening, you know, external pressures that are being put on higher education, but to talk about, you know, what that looks like in terms of surviving [00:10:30] and thriving going forward, mm-hmm, very few institutions, unless you are incredibly exclusive. Um, you have, you know, uh, incredibly profitable, uh, third party contracts, unless there's something really unique about you. Um, we're not done yet with the shakeout in the market, there's still way more supply than demand. And so there will continue to be higher education and there will continue. It will continue to serve million and millions of students, but many of those students [00:11:00] are no longer enamored with the value proposition of a degree, right. Speaker 2: They're going to, um, you know, partnerships like Netflix and two U they're going and getting Google cloud certifi certificates. They're doing, um, Amazon training certificates they're are going to, um, boot camps. Um, there there's a whole, this post-secondary ecosystem is very rich and it's growing very rapidly, but not in the, not in the business that [00:11:30] most, the people on this call are in . And so speaking of transformation, I think for many, many institutions to survive I've and certainly to thrive, they are going to have to think very differently about their business, right? What has to be true for a student to choose me. Right. And what students are saying right now is it needs to be, it needs to be faster. Um, it needs to be stackable. Um, I can't be in a situation where I put in two years and $50,000 and don't get [00:12:00] anything because I had to stop second semester before the end. We have to get to a place where the value proposition for the student is enough that they will choose one of our institutions other than, um, an industry certificate, for example, um, Speaker 1: Yeah, go. I was, I was, uh, just as you're talking, I was thinking of the, the case study of Georgia tech. They have, uh, they, they had their, their master's degree. Um, and, um, in computer science [00:12:30] and my, what I learned was it's kinda like a club. Everybody has their unofficial little territory and, uh, and so Georgia tech, without telling their friends set about, to create in conjunction with Coursera a $6,000, um, master's degree, regionally accredited. And, and, um, and there you go. And it was a big bet and [00:13:00] they threw all kinds of rich supports in there for people that are a little scared of online learning. And they got, what, what was it like 220,000 applications in the first six months they sucked the oxygen out of the entire market. Speaker 2: Yeah. And, and there are other examples to, you know, one of the things that Georgia tech has done, and there are other, you know, examples like, uh, Western governors, Harriet wat, um, uh, Southern New Hampshire institutions that have, [00:13:30] that have, that have gotten in the business of selling what students want or need not what they've sold for the last a hundred years, um, through the typical program development accreditation process. So for example, Harriet, Watts's a good example where they have, they have stacked graduate programs that include, you know, certificates and degrees over a period of time. So, you know, you may stop out a third of the way through, but you've already got a certificate [00:14:00] or two, you have something to walk away with, even if you have to step out for a while. And then if you keep going, you get the next credential and the stuff you've done at the lower level applies to the higher level, right? This is not rocket science. , you know, where my, you know, uh, mysterious, it's just a matter of thinking differently about how we deliver content that our customers need. They, they need something in the post secondary space one way or another. And the [00:14:30] question is who's gonna provide it. Right. Speaker 1: So question then why to stay with you an interesting question from Robin Cullum, um, who said, who asks, so you, you have, um, you have people schools teaching out, um, in a regulated environment, um, say in the industry organization, like a professional college of doctors or something like that. Mm-hmm is that, that's another example [00:15:00] of kinda like industry driving the education space. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think there's two things here. One, one is how, how do you innovate or how do you operate? How do you transform when you're in an environment where there are third parties sort of telling you what you have to do and, and how you have to do it. And then I think the, the second piece is, um, uh, how do, how do, how does industry and, and post-secondary [00:15:30] education fit together, right. To get, so that two plus two equals five versus the traditional four. So let me do the, the first one first. Um, and, and it's a, it's a good question. And the fact is there are circumstances in which there are, uh, third party constraints. It could be an accreditor, it could be a licensing board, uh, whatever. Um, but, but the reality is there is wiggle room in almost any situation. Speaker 2: [00:16:00] Right. Um, and are you gonna be able, let, let, let's say that you are a medical school that is accredited professionally accredited programmatically accredited, um, are, can, are you going to be able to eliminate the us board exams? No, you're not. Okay, but I'll give you an example of where innovation has happened in a very highly regulated space like that university of New Mexico many, many years ago, um, their medical [00:16:30] school, they completely turned their curriculum upside down and they were one of the first schools in the country that said, you know what? We really need better clinicians. We don't want them spending the first two years in a textbook. We want them out in the field in a primary care setting in the first semester. Whoa. And so they turned the curriculum upside down and they put first semester students out into clinical settings, taking medical histories, [00:17:00] working with other, um, practitioners. So that by the time that they got to the junior year, the third year of the program, they are, their clinical skills were far superior to the student in other medical schools around the country. Now that was an example of something that even within the constraints could be changed for the benefit of students, the benefit of patients, the benefit of the community, et cetera. So even [00:17:30] in situations that seem really constricted, there are typically opportu to do pretty innovative things. If people are willing to be disruptive, willing to push the boundaries, um, that Speaker 1: For example, so allow me to jump in then pushing the boundaries, being disruptive. What I'm hearing you telling us is that we can, um, there's a, like you, you mentioned like four X, 10 X improvements on performance, [00:18:00] um, by being willing to stay in the question of how do we become world class, how do we adapt to this new rapidly changing environment? Can we become nimble enough as an organization to do so, but what I hear, um, from you is that it is kinda like a diabetic. I, if they, if they eat properly and exercise, they'll live a long, healthy life, but if they don't, they'll they'll have problems early. [00:18:30] Um, what I'm hearing you telling us, well, actually you told me this prior is that, um, 1500 schools got destroyed largely due to stasis. So, so in other words, just then I'll flip it to you. There's an opportunity to, to create some optional results, whether you're a beauty school, a phlebotomy program, a doctor, uh, school teaching physicians, what have you. But what I also hear [00:19:00] you telling me is there's a big cliff to fall down. If people aren't willing to go and move into this transformation, this transformative process. Yeah. Tell us if a, about what the, the, the, what happens if we don't do this. Speaker 2: Yeah. So the, um, in terms of my take, right, and, and I think it's well founded, you know, because many of the trends that make me say this are already baked in, they're not speculative, right. Demographic trends are already [00:19:30] built in for, um, uh, so, um, if you go back to the 1500 schools that you mentioned grade, what, what that is is between about 2010 and about in 2021, um, about 1,500 institutions, um, no longer exist as they used to. They're either outright closed. They were required in distress. They merged whatever. And very, very few of those institutions did anything different right up until the [00:20:00] day they closed. they, you know, they, they, they cut costs. They laid people off, they closed programs, whatever, but they didn't do anything back to my point previously, that would radically what they're selling and the value proposition for the student. So Speaker 1: You're saying it's a massive wall of denial. Speaker 2: It's a massive wall of denial, which shockingly to me is still pretty. Staed like, I would've thought by now that, that denial would've, you know, crumbled a little bit. [00:20:30] It would've, you know, that, that the wall would've come down. Uh, it, it, it surprisingly has not. Um, uh, there are large, large numbers of institutions right now, out there who maybe they're more efficient, um, uh, but really, uh, like the 1500 that are gone really aren't doing anything substantially different. And there's a reason for that. Right. Very few leadership teams, executive teams have lived experience for this. It's hard to run a daily [00:21:00] business and manage through a crisis and plan for the future, you know, a transformed future. All at the same time, very few people have done that. Very few teams have that capacity and it just goes against human nature. Right. Well, Speaker 1: Might it, might it also be, um, a culture of bureaucracy versus a culture of accountability? Um, oh, absolutely. And when I think of accountability, I think of the proprietary schools, they tend to, um, be the, the [00:21:30] seed of innovation because they, they make rapid ROI decisions. And as a result, they're moving their feet. Whereas our experiences anyway, with, um, the not for profit schools, they're selling large often the same thing, but they're they're model. Is that of a bureaucracy, like a state department. Speaker 2: Yeah. So it is definitely Poulter of bureaucracy. You know, most traditional institutions, not quite [00:22:00] so much with career colleges, but I will tell you, career colleges are way more traditional than we think we are. , uh, most institutions, most tradit institutions, they, the actual structure, they were designed to maintain the status quo. They were maintained, designed through the same thing over and over again, semester after semester, year after year. Right. And, and in fact, they attract people who want to work that way and, and want to be in environment [00:22:30] like that. So it's a, it is culture and it's bureaucracy. And that's another one of my arguments for why transformation itself is necessary is that system won't allow us to, to deal with the challenges we're facing now, it's it wasn't built for that. Right. Um, it wasn't built for innovation. It wasn't built to be nimble. It wasn't built to make quick decisions. Um, and, and that's another reason that I think that the transformation is required for most institutions, because the same, all same [00:23:00] is just, isn't adequate to do the kinds of things we have to do to be viable going forward. Speaker 1: So we've got several thousand schools, 1500 of them have closed or merged under distress. The, the we'll imagine that that's gonna continue the, the shrinking process and there's, um, the, the vacuum is being taken up like, right. For instance, Google are doing these tremendous $500 [00:23:30] certs can't even see a lot of people. Lot of organizations, the, the, um, education is reemerging from the indu industry side backwards. So the people on this call run schools. So given that kind of daunting little scenario, the battle alert of the rings, the battle for middle earth, you know, it's, uh, what, [00:24:00] what can schools let's break down if we can, mm-hmm, two, three things that schools can do now to kinda get the, you know, the, the little flywheel going. Speaker 2: Yeah. So, um, I think there are a couple of things. I, I, I have a list of about six or eight, I think, kind of the sort of core things, uh, that that schools need to focus on. And I'll start with maybe the, the, the two most important [00:24:30] please. Um, the, the, the first would be, um, completely reassessing your student value proposition in a highly competitive market with programs moving out of higher education. And what, what is the reason that a student would choose what you're selling, right. And how does your value proposition fit today's reality? You know, students [00:25:00] needs to be able to go to school. Remotely, students need to get done quickly. Students need to graduate without, you know, know crippling debt. The first thing I think a school has to do is look at that value proposition and say, why would a student choose us? And if you don't have a really clear, compelling answer to that, that's the first place to start. Yeah. Speaker 1: And if I may ju just jump in on your first point there that's, um, Shannon and I have talked about this, the, the new order of marketing, if you will, uh, [00:25:30] and where in the old days, it's all coms and, and what's prevalent, uh, you know, social media people selling their, their wears, but really the, the core thing you have to nail down is intention or PO positioning is the technical term, but it is intention. How can you, what's your, what is a school's intention? How do they want to shake the world? Um, I think that is that what you're getting at. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I I'm, I'm getting at [00:26:00] that. I'm getting at what, what, you know, would be, so world class about your operation, that a, you know, that a potential student doesn't just, you know, play on the link, but says, wow, , you know, I, I've gotta look into this. You know, if I go to, you know, Acme Institute, I can get these two industry certs and a, and a, and an, and an associate degree, and I'll have a mentorship in my first semester, you know, cetera, cetera, cetera. And, oh, by the way, they're [00:26:30] partnered with, you know, Boeing or Safeway or, you know, whatever. And so I'm gonna get, you know, X, Y, Z, that's what it has to look like. Right. There has to be. Yeah. Um, and then the second thing, I would say in addition to the value proposition, Greg, and by the way, we have, you know, long lists of this stuff that through our, you know, primary research and also secondary research, um, that, that we know what works, right. Speaker 2: And we know what that value proposition looks like. [00:27:00] Not for every student, but, but for lots of students, the second thing I would say in terms of where you start as a school is you look at your revenue model, right? A lot of schools for decades and centuries could survive on the old tuition revenue model, right. Um, where you have mostly a single source of revenue, there's almost no way to run any institu of higher education today with that being the only source of revenue, it's impossible for that revenue stream to cover the [00:27:30] fixed cost of serving students in traditional programs. So look at the revenue stream, the revenue stream going forward needs to have multiple sources to it, right. Um, 3, 4, 5 revenue sources. And some of those revenue sources have to be really high margin, right. This, the, the, you know, because without those things being true, I don't think that most institutions can survive the next 5, 10, 15 years. [00:28:00] If all they're selling is a credit bearing pro program in a declining market. Speaker 1: So Wallace, I'm gonna give you an example, a, um, allied health school, um, proprietary school, 600 students, um, they're, they're producing nurses and licensed practical nurses, phlebotomists, what have you give us an example of other rev revenue streams, a school such as that could generate? Yeah. Speaker 2: So I think some of the obvious ones [00:28:30] would be, um, uh, let let's say for example, that you're already, uh, a healthcare expert right. In your institution. Right. You know, you, you have the content, you have the, you know, the, the, the certified cetera, um, you know, what are the needs, what are the continuing education needs of, of the clinical sites, where your students go to learn phlebotomy or nursing or PO, or, you know, respiratory care, um, [00:29:00] they have legal requirements for continuing continuing education. How can you repack that same curriculum or advanced components of that curriculum and sell it as non credit EU. Right. Speaker 1: Love it. So continuing education credits to maintain a licensure. Speaker 2: Yeah. That, that absolutely that, that that's, that, that that's, you know, a, a sort of an obvious example. Um, but I think there are also partnership example, right? Like, okay. Um, uh, you know, [00:29:30] there are multiple, very large health systems today that have built their own internal post-secondary education infrastructure, because they just because the, because colleges weren't meeting their needs right. In terms of volume or quality. So, you know, Baptist health, uh, atrium health, um, ACA these are organizations that, um, that need to hire in mass allied [00:30:00] health workers for their systems, um, partnering with those institutions. You end up getting a third party payer, which is really nice for 90 10, um, and cashflow, uh, and, and, and you say, Hey, look, you need X, you know, number, uh, uh, phlebotomists and X number sonographers by this period of time, we'll be the provider. Speaker 2: And then the, and then the institu, and then the healthcare system doesn't have to build a college inside [00:30:30] their institution or inside their hospital. But then the college really has, this is I wanna make a really important point here about how critical partnership is going forward. Um, the idea of doing it all in house and all on our own is, is going away for most institutions. Mm-hmm . But what that means is you have to partner. So we're not talking about the annual cookies and donuts and coffee pack meeting, right. We're talking about being embedded [00:31:00] in industry sites. We're talking about the curriculum coming from industry, not from faculty, we're talking about building out and mapping curriculum to match company needs. Licensure needs, certification needs, cetera, where it's way more than just getting a sign off from industry it's at actually becoming a, an Envoy of industry for, for building, for workforce development. [00:31:30] So Speaker 1: If I may, what you're saying. Um, you have, uh, the old way, if you will, mm-hmm some government body, or through licensure, a school is created. There is some input from industry graduates complete, and then they scatter and try to find work. And what you're suggesting is maybe the way going forward as a, a [00:32:00] distinct revenue stream is to do, like what, um, Umer did with, uh, with Chrysler, where they created a Chrysler university operated by Tryer. Um, and they get a back in the day, I worked at the university of Phoenix and I created a deal with the HR managers association and, uh, Phoenix's leadership [00:32:30] Institute, and Phoenix created these accredited programs. They taught to these HR people and the, the university of Phoenix, the, the other schools are going, people are crazy, but at that time, I think their stock split the fifth time. So maybe not so crazy. Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'll give you an example of mm-hmm and if you guys wanna reach out to this person, I know he'll talk to you and Joel English. Yeah. Jo E Joel English. Who's the CEO's, Speaker 1: Uh, [00:33:00] happy client of ours. Yep. Speaker 2: Who's the CEO, um, at aim, um, aviation Institute maintenance, uh, uh, Centura college and Tidewater tech. Um, and, and they, within our sector, probably one of the best examples of partnership. So they partnered with Boeing, they've partnered with Piedmont and American airlines, and they have situations where they are training mechanics. Just one example for the employer using [00:33:30] employer based content and outcomes while preparing them for the FAA exams and the company in many cases is paying the tuition. it's, you know, it's, but that requires those institutions to give up some, uh, control, right? To sure. To look at industry as not just a signoff, but a core core Speaker 1: Partner, [00:34:00] they become, uh, essentially a, a client. Exactly. And, uh, so where we can take this is the, the leaders within the schools of the people on this call, really in their business model, they need to have themselves, or a C level person selling to industry. So it's not just a, a placement officer, but a somebody going in and doing large high level deals like I was doing with the university [00:34:30] of Phoenix 20 years ago. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I would argue that one of the differences in leadership needs today, we, you know, we are talking about transformation, not leadership, but leadership is a huge piece right. Of transformation and a lot of the sort of traditional leadership skills of the past, you know, basic things like, you know, budgeting and the strategic planning and, you know, that's okay. Stuff. That's price of entry stuff. But today, if you want to be a, a really effective leader, [00:35:00] that if you wanna have any chance of taking your institution from where it is to being one of those outlier institutions, yes. Speaker 1: We let me jump in. Yeah. Outlier means four X to 10 X outperforming the average. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm and if, if you want to be in that place, you know, you have to have leadership, a CEO, plus the people around her or him, that, that, in addition to that stuff I talked about before, which is just price of entry table stake stuff [00:35:30] that they have to have business development jobs. Um, they, they have to have marketing jobs. They have to understand product strategy, not, not just a program portfolio, but what are we gonna sell to whom and why are they gonna buy it? Right. Um, they have to be, they have to be externally facing, right. Um, out there, you know, in the storm of the environment that we're, that we're operating in. [00:36:00] And that is a very diff I mean, for, I'll give you an example 20 years ago, um, uh, particularly in the traditional sector, you, would've never expected a, an ins, you know, a college president to have M and a experience or, or M and a expertise, right. How can we grow through acquisition? How can we partner, um, with other institutions, you know, to save, um, that's become, I think, a, a core [00:36:30] skill of today's leaders as well. How do we work with other organizations, other institutions, vendors, cetera, to grow revenue, increase margins, um, uh, doing things we can't do by ourselves. Speaker 1: So you see, uh, some examples, uh, uh, a handful, uh, Purdue, ASU, not, not for profit entities that I I'm guessing, looked in the mirror and said, we can't flip a culture on our ear. [00:37:00] Let's instead buy a well functioning, proprietary school, the different business model to augment, you know, what we're doing. Speaker 2: Yeah. So there are multiple cases of that, you know, in university of Arizona as well, they bought, uh, um, Ash, what was it? Uh, Ash Ashford. Yeah. Ashford, university mm-hmm . Um, so, you know, and I, I'm working with a, um, a very [00:37:30] traditional, very old , um, uh, um, liberal arts university in the middle of the country. Um, they have taken a completely transformational approach to their future. Um, and they are, you know, a not for profit liberal arts university founded in the mid 18 hundreds. Right. And one of their primary strategic initiatives for growth is [00:38:00] acquisition. Speaker 1: So along those lines, um, I think, um, we only have a few minutes left in our, our, um, our time together on this talk. Uh, and I think there are a couple people that wanted to lob out some questions to you. You've spurred some thinking and Joe gonna be the conduit and ask the questions, go ahead, Jody Speaker 2: Away. Speaker 3: Wonderful. Now some of these may have been answered in some form throughout, but in, um, [00:38:30] um, a, a summary will, uh, going over it again would be nice. Okay. How would Dr. Pond view career schools in relation to traditional higher ed? Speaker 2: So that's a really, really, really big broad question. Um, but I will answer it kind of in the context of what we've been talking about today, you know, transformation, innovation, et cetera. Um, career colleges have always been industry oriented partner [00:39:00] oriented, um, which is, I think, advantageous compared to the typical traditional higher education institution that is much less well positioned for that piece. I said that I think a big part of surviving and thriving going forward is the industry partnership piece. Having said that, I think we think we're better at that than we really are. um, you know, uh, yes, we have industry relationships, but if you look around to actually [00:39:30] deeply embedded, you know, the examples I gave with, you know, American, I, I'm sorry, aviation and Institute, um, of maintenance, that's rare, even in the career sector to see a partnership that's that deep, right. And that interdependent. Um, but I'd also say real quickly about the two sectors, um, is it's really, you know, um, there's some things about the career, a college sector that make it a little bit easier to innovate [00:40:00] and to transform such as the governance structure compared to, you know, if you're at a, a public university, what it takes to transform is almost impossible just due to the bureaucracy and the governance issues, um, and the politics. So Speaker 1: What you're really getting at at is that the career college is going forward, if your premise is correct. And I believe it is have a distinct advantage, um, by nature of how their, their [00:40:30] organizations operate to create those industry centric or business centric, um, partnerships. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think there's also an advantage in terms of what the sector sells, right? So if, if you're a big private liberal arts university, you don't even have the language to talk about certificates and badges and stacking credentials. And, but, but if you're college, Speaker 1: What, yeah. Like what's the difference between, [00:41:00] you know, a sociology degree and a large pizza. a large pizza feeds a family of four. Yeah. sorry. That's a stupid joke. Um, Jody, uh, can we squeeze another question in Speaker 3: Absolutely. How does this need for transformation in post secondary apply for schools that teach subjects where the curriculum or delivery is regulated by an industry organization, such a professional college? I E the ability to innovate is curtailed by [00:41:30] a third party. Speaker 2: Yeah. So I, I, I, I, that's the question I answered previously about the medical school, you know, university of New Mexico, um, and what they were able to do, despite the perception of it being a very tightly, um, controlled, but I'll, I'll give one, I will give another example that I think is really actionable, um, for the kind of schools that are on this call. One of the real distinct advantages of getting into a non-credit non-degree [00:42:00] market, right, is you can do almost any of those programs without accreditation or title four or DOE, um, or state approvals. Um, those are industry type, not all, but many of them you can launch and you can deliver without getting permission from anybody. So Speaker 1: You're, you're suggesting then the school becomes a, a training organization, Speaker 2: Both, right? Whatev, like I said, whatev whatever, you know, [00:42:30] if you look where the market is going, where students are going, they're going towards programs that are non-credit non-degree, um, have an industry cert, uh, are affordable, are stackable, you know, so that they get the first one, the second one, the third one, then they become a master, whatever, right? Those are the kinds of programs you can call it, training, whatever you wanna call it. But I think that most institutions of higher education today are gonna have to recognize that they need [00:43:00] to be at some level in that market too. Speaker 1: Okay. Far away. What's the next question for Dr. Pawn? What Speaker 3: Causes stasis in school management this came in for, after your comment of all this stuff is happening in these schools close, but they changed nothing they did right up until the day they closed. Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a really interesting question. And it has, you know, the answer has its roots in industrial psychology. , um, uh, the, the short answer and I, and [00:43:30] for time, I'll give the short answer, is that in most organizations, when I say most, I mean, in almost all right organizations, it is safer. If you are a leader, it is safer to ride the status quo into the ground than it is to take a big risk. Right. Um, if you keep doing what you've been doing forever, you double down on it and you do it hard and you do it more and , you know, whatever. [00:44:00] Um, uh, and you still end up, you know, crashing and burning that can be explained away as it was inevitable. You know, the market market changes were too severe, too pronounced. There was no way out of it, you know, blah, blah, blah, just same excuses that like face to face retail have. Right. Speaker 1: So, so Wallace it's just like somebody basically, um, hanging on to a, a career ASED at protecting one's career. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I [00:44:30] will say, you know, um, one of our advisors at the transmission collaborative Alan Walker, who's a really interesting guy and he's been a president three times and done some amazing transformational work in higher education. We were talking about this the other day, and he was noting that in order to lead transformative change, you have to have courage and conviction because you have to be willing to put yourself out there. You have to be willing to take a career risk. [00:45:00] Right. Speaker 1: It's a Mar uh, you know, well, it's just a, it's a marketing thing where if you go in and talk to the president of a school, it's gotta be packaged in a way that, um, if there's failure that the president somehow wins. Right. Speaker 2: right. You know, it's iterative, it's, it's, it's a learning experience. It's a, it's a pivot point. Right. Um, but I think, you know, I, I really, that's such an important question that was asked, and I know it was our last question, but, um, [00:45:30] it, it, it's, it's the core reason that transformative change is so rare. Um, you, it can literally be career ending, not just lose a job, but, um, yeah. You know, uh, uh, so it, it takes a kind of support board support, ownership, support, investor support, whatever. Um, even if you have the courage and conviction, right. The, those, those key areas of resource have to be behind you as well. Speaker 1: Who [00:46:00] is the guy that, um, developed the, the Pinto exploding Pinto with Ford board? Yeah. You don't know, neither do I, nobody knows. That's because he's in the graveyard to speak, you know, who wants to hire that guy is what, I guess what we're getting at. And Speaker 2: I will also say that I will also say that for people who do it, you know, leading transformational change is a hell of a lot more fun and enjoyable than crisis management. Speaker 1: [00:46:30] Okay. I like that that's much. So, Shane, all right. Uh, I think we just have a couple minutes left. Do you have a question for Dr. Pond by chance? Are you there? Oh, me. Yeah. You, do you have any? I do. Speaker 4: Yeah, I do. I'd love this cross line of thing. It's super interesting. So Dr. Pond, how many of these bad decisions we're making as leaders are just driven by self-preservation versus kind of [00:47:00] like pursuit of the bigger objective? Speaker 2: Oh, I, the majority, uh, yeah. I, I, I think that a vast majority of the stasis and the lack of, um, uh, in the lack of, uh, risk taking the lack of embracing the new comes from self preservation. Um, I think it's, I think the, you know, the lack of experience lived experience the lack of expertise. The lack of resources is secondary, you know, at, at the transformation collaborative, we say, you know, [00:47:30] for institutions that are willing, we are the able right. But the willing part is much harder. Um, and I think that's where most of the lack of change happens. Speaker 4: So would then, would it be fair to say that the, the, the, the big question for a leader to on is, am I able to think and operate a way that my own needs aren't being considered, right. The, the, the organization's needs or the [00:48:00] are the primary thing driving my decisions? Is that a healthy way to think about it as a leader? Speaker 1: Well, Wallace to have, oh, Speaker 4: No. Maybe we lost Dr. Speaker 1: I'll answer on behalf of Wallace till it comes back. Sure. So, okay. I think you have 30 seconds, Greg . Oh, okay. Just so you know. Well, my short answer is that, uh, uh, the there's, if you're running an organization like a business, um, [00:48:30] you Absolut have to, um, think of the greater good versus the personal self-interest mm-hmm , uh, or else the, um, at some point, things will fall apart and will become a mess.